Front end wobble

[OriginalOne]

soo, I just redid my forks seals and internals were all good. Tire's been changed and balanced umpteen times, wheel bearings checked... and yet I still have this horrible shake at 120 STILL.

Anyone with an R6 willing to come by or let me come by and swap front wheels so I can see if it does it with the new wheel? I dont understand really why it's doing it being that i've done all that I can do pretty much but if I do this maybe it'll help me with some trouble shooting

I've been told IF I had a stabilizer it wouldn't do it, BUT I shouldn't need one, and it really would still be doing it, it would just be covered up

[burns]

Check you chain to make sure it is not to tight. Having your chain to tight can cause a head shake.
String the wheels to make sure they are aligned. If they are not aligned that could be your problem.
Steering dampeners are great, get one!. Quit bitchin
Check the front and rear wheel to make sure they are true.
Check tire preasure.
If you have a baggie jacket get ride of it. The wing can grab it in the arms and cause a head shake.
Slow down.

posted in SC for the fix.

[Mike]

posted in SC for the fix.

Mind posting it here too?

[CBRjunkie]

Does it do it only under acceleration at those speeds or under all circumstances at high speeds?

If its under acceleration thats typical especialy on bumpy roads. A steering damper will help this. If its all the time a steering damper is not going to help it. A steering damper only helps with minor or major tankslap from left to right. But yes a steering damper helps. Even my bike with one still shakes a lot but only under acceleration or a change in the tarmac. If it is a misbalance caused by bent rim, etc. I would think it would be a little more complicated. Like multiple reactions to the front suspension up, down, side to side etc. The damper will only help mask the problem.

So I think you are smart by looking into this deeper. I think we have a spare rim of Treys. Call Jason. He knows for sure.

[Keith_crash]

I will swap with you if you still dont have the problem fixed.

[OriginalOne]

Thanks burns... how do you string the wheels?
randy didn't have a fix...
Matt, It does it mostly under acceleration and just maintaining high speeds, decel has enough weight on the front to keep it down. It's pretty unrideable at highspeeds. I push it to 130 and i'm literally not far from pissing myself...it's that bad

i'm going to try and get up with keith tomorrow and swap wheels to see. My buddy said he went through four tires having this problem all race take offs but then he finally got one that didn't do it???

I asked dk the same thing and he had a "duh shit" idea. messure from your swing arm bolt. if it's not strait you got a bent frame. Comprende"? So from a common spot on your swing arm bolt to a common spot on your rear axle. once you look at it you will think "duh shit" too

[mccutch2u]

i would try a new tire also

[burns]

Come down to the shop, This is too much of a pain in the ass to explain without visual aid, also there may be other problems w your bike causing this head-shake.

[SUM650]

I think the race tires are causing the problem. I have never had any luck with them on my bikes. In fact I have sworn off or running take off tires on the street. They ride like shit. I have plenty of take off tires around, but you will notice that I don't have any on my bikes. Did you have this problem before you mounted the take offs? If not get good set of street tires balanced and mounted on the thing and your problem will be solved. Another thing how many miles do you have on your chain? If the answer is over 10,000 miles, do yourself a favor and get a new one. This also makes your bike ride badly. One more thing get a steering damper for you bike. Every magazine article that I have read on the R6 insist that they need one, and Matt say's you need one. Case closed, you need one.

[burns]

On the 99 R6 I have a steering dampener and it is great. Don't have one on the 01 but it needs one!
The most miles I have ever put on a chain is a little over 16,000 miles. When I took it off to replace it, it was not that bad of shape.
But I say like Berry, try street tires not take offs

[Nash]

Yeah, I'm with Barry. I'm thinking it's the tire. This happen to me a few years back, but it was the rear tire.

[burns]

NOT TO SHIT ON THE BRAND, but I bet you are on a Dunlop take off that came from a club guy. That is the problem. Club folk that are given tires from them just get whatever is grabbed out of the storage. When it comes down to picking tires out for say the AMA teams they go in there and hand pick the tires for the teams. Dunlop has a problem with not making all of their tire round. When we ran Dunlops on our AMA bikes there was one time when Owen had them change the tire on one wheel 17 time till he was happy with the tire.

[OriginalOne]

yea I agree with you guys,with it being the tire. Just weird that I've been through 2 of them. But yea it didn't do it with my stock front. I like the tires a lot on the street and i've put over 1500 on the rear. But this friggin wobble blows. It's not like I get up to 120 all the time or anything. But it's a definite problem.

As for the chain, eh it's alright, i replaced it with a stock one a few thousand miles ago, total it probably has 6-8k miles on it.

And the steering damper, Yes I know it helps, i know it's amazing, but I'm not trying to cover up an existing problem and that's exactly what that does. It didn't have this problem in the past and handled GREAT for a bike without a steering damper. That's all i'm looking for. I'm going to go ahead and stick with it being the tire and try and get a new one.

[CBRjunkie]

Funny my bike never has the problem at 170+.

Race tires are a little more unstable because the carcass is softer than a street tire so they flex more especialy the Pirelli. A dunlop carcass feels like a brick compared to Pirelli. But race tires are designed to be stable leaned over not up and down. But I can not tell the differance in a straight line between a street and race tire.

[burns]

YEP, but the Dunlops still suck.
LOL!!

[burns]

the only major diference between the Dunlop and Pirelli race tires is that the Pirelli's are round. The Dunlop's that are available to the common club guy are not so much, unless they are made in britten and hand selected by Jimmy himself. That was the only way we ever got a round and true tire from Dunlop.
To get to the heart of the problem at hand, did you make any changes to your bike before the instability problem reared it's head? (like installed new tires, adjusted your chain, made a ride height change, etc., etc.?)

[Keith_crash]

Any one who said it was the tire is wrong. We swapped today I ran with his take off and he ran with my M-1. He still had the wobble and I still didnt. He also rebuilt the forks since the problem so its not that either. We were wondering if maybe the back being out of balance would do it. Any thoughts?

[burns]

Take the rear wheel off and go get it balanced. If it is out of balance that could be your problem sir.

This is what I posted in SC

The zx10's are having this same problem you have 2 choices. One is take your bike to DK he does the first suspension set up for free. Get that SAG set. This may help. If not then your out$400 for a scotts stering dampner. I have a guy who can get it here for $410. you could get a gpr for around $345 but hell I would pay more for the scotts.
The problem is as you get into high rpm's the front tire contact patch thins out ALOT then at high speeds air gets cramed in there. kinda like when your board and you blow on celefane off a cigaret pack... it makes a harmonic distortion. well thats what is happening to your front end. a scotts will save your ass.
BTW did you ever get that bolt out?

[SUM650]

Sounds like you did half of the job. You tested the front and found no problem, so why didn't you swap the rears to complete the test?

[DK]

Start by stringing up the rear wheel .....

Take a string about 16 feet in length....
Wrap the string around the rear rim and tire so that the string exits the rim on th opposing side it had entered...

Place the bike on a rear stand so that it is level...

Staighten out the front end so that the wheel is pointed straight...

Take the string that is wrapped around the tire and draw it closer to the front/outside edge of the rear tire... The string should now be touching the rear edge and front edge of the rear tire... Once the string is touching both edges you will pull on it to get it extended well past the front tire... Play with the string so that it is pulling dead straight once touching the front edge of the rear tire... Secure the string with tape or something heavy to the floor....

Now do the same for the other side of the tire....

The distance between the 2 sides should be equal if the chain adjustment at the rear of the swingarm is correct.....

You will have to adjust the chain again if the distances are not equal ...
(Unless the frame is bent or wheel spacers are not installed properly)

Also check your front axle ....

Put the bike on a steering head stand or hang it from the ceiling....
Remove front wheel and insert axle without wheel.... You shouls be able to turn axle with two fingers.... Any more and you must clean out fork axle holders or adjust the height of your forks so that they are equal.....

Also check to see that you have not over tightened the front axle....
Too much torque and you will bend the opposing fork in and it will not work fast enough causing severe suspension drag and mis-aligning the forks....

Once done install brake calipers and pump up brakes.... Spin wheel to see if there is any significant drag ......

You had also said that you rebuilt your own forks.....
Where is the oil height and did you bleed them properly !!!!!????
Where are your compression dampers set at .... As if they are too hard they will not work fast enough and your tire will be jumping over the bumps rather than absorbing them..................................

If your headshake is so severe are you able to stop the bike after it shakes

If it is really bad it can slap your brake calipers back and when you attempt to brake there is nothing there for you when you need it ......

Don't be cheap and or dumb .....

Seek out a pro ....
DKF2.com for the those who did not know.... :chin:

[OriginalOne]

well we kind of ran out of time... or I did anyway, so we didn't swap the rears... I wasn't so sure that it would really fix it either I wanted some more input on it. I was thinking about bringing it in to shadetree monday or possibly tuesday sometime. I'll try the string thing first IF I can interpret it. I was hoping it WAS the tire so I'd know what was wrong but I'm kind of glad it wasn't so I dont have to buy another one. It would make sense kind of if it was the rear tire now though because it did just start doing it when all I did was change tires. The forks, I took off and in to Shad over at champion and he changed the seals out and did all that. I think the best/next step would be to swap out the rear tire maybe. Whenever you got a minute keith let me know. Oh and thanks for helping me out today too, I appreciate it. At least one of our bikes got some improvement.

[Keith_crash]

No problem Brandon. I will see whats going on this week but we have been working 12+ hr shifts lately. Thanks for the web site too, I went to order it thought and it wont go through. I am just going to call them on my lunch break tommorrow and order it.

P.S. SCRiders.com Sucks!!!

[Mike]

P.S. SCRiders.com Sucks!!!

Huh?

[SUM650]

we have been working 12+ hr shifts lately.

So your not a non working bum anymore! Did you get the job that you wanted?

[CT954RIDER]

Check your stearing head bearings

[SUM650]

Check your stearing head bearings

I was thinking the samething Big Ben.

[crash]

This is just another suggestion that might help. Since you just rebuilt your forks did you change the compreesion and rebound settings or the preload? If so check both to make sure they are set the same because this may also cause your problem.

[Keith_crash]

we have been working 12+ hr shifts lately.

So your not a non working bum anymore! Did you get the job that you wanted?
I go actavated in the reserves. Making money, cant complain. Still waiting to see if I am going to be getting the other job but I don't know when they are going to start. I think the contract is on hold. Still looking for a civilian job to work atleast part time for now.

[OriginalOne]

steering head bearing has been checked...A ok... the suspension settings are the same as they were before. It handles the same way it always has, maybe a little better, except at 130... :(

[DK]

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
Dude your killing me .......
Bring down to the Shop ......
We'll get it figured out ..... :chin: :chin: :chin: :chin: :chin: :chin: :chin:
No charge if it's something dumb, but if so you have to sign

"The Boat of Shame"

All free service work will now be accounted for on said

"Boat of shame"

Starting with you............................................... .....................................
Many to follow I am sure .......

Just get here .................................................. ....................................

is that the one with the big damn spider?

[mccutch2u]

just spendthe 200 dollars for a set of tires from ron ayers then have dk or someone put them on and balance them check you rotors and alignment then go from there..................then if that doesn't work then it is something with the bike itself.................or if you want to save yourself of the headaches................BUY SUZUKI...................

Did some thinking about this today. If your testing this at 120mph your going to get hurt.... I would get a dampner and then get the fix. If you go into a super nasty head shake at 120. the out of balanced tire or mis mached fork will be the least of your worries.

[crash]

Don't worry about it, crashing at 120 isn't that bad. I don't want to see anybody else do it though nor do I care to do it again myself!

[OriginalOne]

thanks for the advice dad, but i think i can handle it.

went to DK's today. Stand up guy, thanks man. Took a look at my bike and well... wheels are straight, front end is straight, the only problem was that the forks were not done properly. Found out Shad didn't position a nut on the internals right and it didn't line up so you couldn't adjust my suspension at all because it was soo far out of limits. DK explained it to me, I took it to shad and he fixed it for me no problem...since he messed it up.. I haven't tested to see if that fixed my front end shuffle and I'm not sure that it will really, BUT DK also told me that the rear tire may be contributing to it, because it's kind of flat in the middle. That's what I get for using GPs on the street though. (almost 2k mi on them). So I think my forks are fixed, they definitely seemed to dampen more on the ride home, but I really didn't get to test them out too much. And when I come across a rear tire i'll be changing that sucker out. Anyone have a 208 GP take off? lol ahhh well. and if that doesn't fix it... 2003 R6 for sale

[Keith_crash]

That's what I get for using GPs on the street though.

:lmao:
Didnt we aready have this conversation

[OriginalOne]

hey, now i still have gotten my money out of them, and still could keep using them, shouldn't be doing 120 too often on the street, besides it's just a bad tire period, still got 2k miles on it and lots of tread left

[crash]

Who is this guy that did your forks? What did he do to them anyway, just change the fork seals out? I am glad you found your problem.

[OriginalOne]

FYI... IT WAS THE STEERING HEAD BEARINGS. At first there was no problem.. as it seemed. But gradually it has gotten worse and now there is play. Started to hear a faint chatter in the front end. Couple of cranks 38ft/lbs and i'm golden. Pretty crappy I went through all that crap. But hey, I learned a few things.

[mccutch2u]

are you back in town now

[OriginalOne]

friday... you ge another bike yet?

[mccutch2u]

yeah i bought dj,s old r1 2004 and fixed it

[Dmaniiz]

I've been watching this "Front End Wobble" thread for a while and am glad to see things worked out. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!!

Hey, is there any way to get a condensed version of this thread or any mechanical issue threads re-posted in a condensed manor? Just a thought...

This is for "Original One"...good on ya for sticking it out and getting your ride fixed!!!

[DK]

"Original One"......

Just how many wheelies had you set down in the course of the 6 months it took you to reply about getting it fixed .....

As I do recall checking the steering head when it was here in the shop .....

They were not an issue when original inspection was performed .....

The forks at the time had no rebound damping to them......
(because of improper re-assembly)
((some rebound issues are due to the over torque of fasteners on the triple clamps which will squeeze the fork outer tube preventing the fork slider from moving smoothly though outer tube because the proper clearance has not been achieved.... ))


All other associated problems had been diagnosed......


In addition to the flattened out rear tire with low tire pressure and slightly mis aligned rear wheel adjustment......

A lot of the older Yamaha's from 1999 -2003 R-1 and R-6 had very soft cast material make up for the frames.....

They would fatigue when ridden for long periods and were most prominently displayed as soft when abused from wheelies and stoppies....

The aluminum had very small flaws in it (pocketed air/casting flaws).....

It was not made of the same quality alloy of other manufactures......

Steering head bearings on a street bike generally don't go bad unless the machine is stored outside in the elements. Storing outside in the elements will cause the dust seals to dry rot as they are made of rubber.... It is also a good idea to not pressure wash a motorcycle as the high pressure spray will push water passed the dust seals to never allow it to escape and ruin the bearings the dust seal was intended to protect.......

Because it was the 2003 R-6 you were riding it is a safe gamble that the front end was lifted on numerous occasions and slammed back down causing the alloy to soften up around the steering head bearings by mere .001's of an inch to give you the clicking sound you are referring to.... The same could be said for the front fork bushings......

The bearings will not wear out any where near as fast as the frame will ....

On these older model R-1, R-6, many older and new GSXR series machines you should stay on top of their steering head bearing adjustment......

It should not be considered a regularly service item, but truth be known, they are ..............

[the_MAC]

if i get any wobble over here, i just give the camel some water and he starts walking straight again...